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One of John A Wheeler's challenge questions is "Why the quantum?". I tried to answer that in a recent meeting| with him.

The quantum is simply the result of discrete nature. If changes were infinitely divisible, like Zeno, you could never get from point A to point B.

The constraints on the universe are logical, not physical. Logical systems, including the language I am writing this in, are countable and reducible to discrete binary logic. Shannon showed arbitrary signals can be represented as bits. The only way to avoid infinite recursion is ultimately, discrete binary logic. Differences must ultimately be binary, a difference, or no difference. Any observation is ultimately a combination of some integral number of these differences, thus the quantum.

John was not convinced by this reasoning. It does not answer the issue for him. I can see now why. My answer was not a scientific one.

To answer the issue scientifically, let us look to the basic question of how order emerges from chaos. We observe order arising from chaos on many semi-fractal dimensions of organization. Is it really necessary that order emerges in a quantum fashion?

The second law of thermodynamics prevents order from arising from chaos in general, but there is an exception, the WhitescarverClock. Interacting with chaos at the binary change level allows for the resurrection of lost information. The only know way of order emerging from chaos without violating the second law is by logical abstraction such as the WhitescarverClock. This predicts that the Bit lies at the bottom layer of binary nature which in composite manifests the quantum, discrete nature.

The ultimate answer may be that "finite nature" is necessarily discrete. Finite nature is all we can perceive in finite time. (Zeno's parodox)

The second law of thermodynamics is not valid. It is merely an observation from a particular local view point/ReferenceFrame. We know the reverse of the second law holds true... that from chaos emerges order. A chaotic Hydrogen cloud will condense, and form a Star. That Star will organize its contained Hydrogen into Helium through fusion. Yet we choose to ignore this and say, we 'lost' energy/information to the abyss in this process.

'Dynamical systems are not bound by the 2nd law.  But the universe as a whole is in concept a closed system subject to general systems theory and the LawsOfThermodynamics.  No one has demonstrated more than fleeting violations of the 2nd law.  The US patent office will not patent any device in violation of the law.  We cannot say lightly that the law is not valid.  If existence seems to violate the law in some way we must show how.  The WhitescarverClock provides an example of apparent violation that does not in fact violate the second law.  This suggests that the apparent violation need not be an actual violation where information is resurrected by logic.'

This seems incorrect. In IP, we grew space with that 'lost' information. And so long as that information continues along, not received, we continue to have that information in transit. It isn't lost, and its space-time spoke itself is evidence of that fact.

 'Quantum communication is by nature private and secrete.  Information is transferred in an all or nothing fashion.  It is consumed entirely by the receiver, there are no witnesses.  If objects exchange information among themselves and do not interact with the world at large the details interactions are lost to our world.  If after a series of iterations the objects return to the same state they were in before they interacted, all evidence of any of the interaction is lost.'

The sum total of all energy in our universe remains constant, doesn't it? Then there is no loss of energy or information; merely energy or information that we exclude from our ReferenceFrame, by logic, bias, or due to it being beyond our senses. But the information is still there, being transmitted, until it is received. Once received, it is processed. This will lead to some form of state change. The information is now transmuted/transferred, and while one can argue that the information is now beyond our reach, the sum total of all the energy/information in our universe remains constant.

 'The conservation of energy is an emergent phenomenon in the ecology of information.'

We know things self organize. Self organizing behavior is also called emergent behavior. It is merely our personal ReferenceFrame that biases us. When you burn the information plants have stored in a wood fire in your fire place, to you, that information is gone quickly. Some of that information reached you, warming your hands. Some of it reached the fire place, warming its structure. Some of it went up the flue. But none of that base information is lost. Each bit received caused a state change, and more state changes will follow.

One can argue that the information released by the fire is lost, as how something comes to a state is not needed to reach the next state. States are effectively eternal, until a new state change is triggered by an event. But the sum total energy/information of the universe remains constant. It is merely the temporal and transitory combination of energy messages and energy states that has changed.

 'Information loss is relative.  You can use a difference in temperature or pressure to do work, but you can also allow the differences to mix without doing any work.  You cannot get this ability to do work back again without expending energy.'

Why quantum? Humm... If the universe is based on the differential, then why is it Boolean? Why isn't it trinary, say? You said it either is or isn't. That's Boolean. Is that the only possibilities? Something is either gaining order or losing it? Something is either hotter or it isn't?

'Trinary changes or differences are simply 2 related binary differences.  The point is that logic resurrects information, and the simplest logic is binary and all higher order logic is reducible to binary logic.'

Merry Late Christmas==== Something for you to have fun tearing apart. I'm sure there are many mistakes in this reply. ;) ---StarPilot ====

'Thanks Star, your comments have help clarify the issues as usual, hope you had a great Christmas and have a great new year====' -- JimScarver

Thanks==== You too! I hope you had a great Christmas, and you have a wonderful New Year! ====

That did help clarify a few things, didn't it? Surprising. And we seem to have said the same thing in several places. That's scary. ;-)

I'd like to pick on your use of 'work'. The universe is doing its work. You say we can make use of a temperature or pressure difference to do work... but the truth is, the differences are doing their work regardless of our interference. We are merely adding in our own devices to redirect some of the work of existence to do work we deem useful to us. But the true work still happens with or without our intercepting devices. If we aren't smart enough to take advantage of the situation, that's our gray matter's failing, isn't it? Not a true loss of information.

As for information is lost forever... is it? Or is it merely beyond our reach, currently? There was a time just a century ago, that learned people thought that entropy had consumed the information of who had been in what rooms, but we now can recover that information. We've discovered and reasoned and refined our processes for identifying many bits of information left behind by the passage of a person (fingerprints, shoe prints, hair, skin cells, mucus membranes, etc etc etc).

We push back the bounds of entropy, every day. Perhaps there is a final limit that cannot be pushed back, but I do not think that as of this shared date and time, we can truly say whether we will ever find a limit. With the exception, perhaps, of the first event. ---StarPilot

How events are manifest is solely determined by the ReferenceFrame of the participants and is always becoming many things from many perspectives as in TheCaseOfTheElectronCollision. The ambiguity of the information manifests entropy. We create the past as we discover it, reducing its ambiguity by propagating a particular perspective into the future manifesting time and space. Information must be lost to distinguish this world from all countable possible worlds, but there is no limit to the information in this world that can be determined among our LightCones.

Something sounds odd in that. We reduce the possibilities to define the here and now. That means we use Entropy to define RealityRightNow. (Entropy = Loss of perceptible/distinguishable information.)

'Entropy is relative to an information perspective.  It has a double edge as it is a function of the unknown possible states divided by the known.  Increasing possibilities as well as lost information increases entropy.'

RealityRightNow is the ultimate Entropy? But ambiguity is the ultimate state of information... all information, being communicated all at once. That means the sum total of all current and past state changes, doesn't it? So Entropy isn't the loss of information, it is the transition to an AllInformation state? Too much information?

 'In information theory, too much information is indistinguishable from noise.  Information is not necessarily lost to the microsm; it just becomes unavailable from our information perspective.  But quantum interactions behave as though the information is lost to our sampling apparatus.  There is no way of knowing the state of a quantum system except when we interact with it.  We can postulate that these internal events don't happen because we can't observer them, but when we do look, we see something that behaves like a random population sampling of processes we cannot see.  Like information falling into a BlackHole, we can say it exists but it is not in our world.  It existence however is synthetic since we can only describe the behavior of the quantum, we can never know what if it really follows any of the particular models that we exhibit the right statistical properties.  We can never be certain that we won't find a more complex model, consistent with what we know, that might predict new phenomenon.  We presume Ocham's razor applies.'

What distinguishes ThisWorld from any other? Well, the participants and their state change chains, doesn't it? As a participant is merely a current collection of state and substates, that means we can refactor the previous statement to: The state change chain of ThisWorld. Our history distinguishes us from OtherWorlds. If our history and theirs is identical, then there is no distinguishing, and that instance of OtherWorlds must also be ThisWorld. Yes? ---StarPilot

'It is the histories of a collection of participants that distinguishes us from OtherWorlds.  Our perspectives manifest our individual history as part of the collective.  The synthesis of our views creates information, you are correct, by the differences manifest.  There is no preferred observer in TheCaseOfTheElectronCollision, the three perspectives are not just possibilities, they are all manifest in the shared reality of all the participants.'
 I am looking at this from a refactorer or simplist point of view. If you you cannot distinguish between ThisWorld and OtherWorld, then they are the same world, aren't they? Whatever applies to ThisWorld, applies to OtherWorld, and visa versa. Otherwise, you can distinguish between the two, and they are not identical. :-D ---StarPilot

And doesn't there have to be a limit to the information that can be determined between our LightCones? If we distinguish ThisWorld from OtherWorlds, then at each determination, we are sawing off half of all future possibilities. Just as each flip of a coin saws off half the possibilities of what all future flips of that coin sequence can be. We know, for instance, that in the next second, I will not be crowned Emperor of all the Solar System. That possibility does not reopen to me, tick by tick of the shared interactions between our LightCones. Current and Past State Chains determine what is possible for Future States. The LightCones are LightCones, after all. ---StarPilot

'You aren't Emperor of all the Solar System?  Then who is? lol.'
'It seems that information inflation occurs as participants emerge manifesting more possibilities.  But we cannot presume that all of the ManyWorlds exist and that most probably you either are or are not Emperor of all the Solar System as there is no basis (yet) to presume observers of that other world exist.  At the same time cannot entirely rule out that you might become Emperor...'
 My point is that while some occurances might be possible, when compared to the range of all possibibilities that can transpire in the future, we can easily rule out most of them. For me to be crowned Emperor of all the Solar System, someone or something would have to do so. As that isn't happening now, it is unlikely to happen in the next second. Although I suppose I could always crown myself (or someone else could make that claim for me), as anything other then a joke, it certainly isn't a real possibility. And it is even less probable than you being crowned King of England in the next second. Think of all the events that have to transpire for you to be crowned King of England. Such as the loss of the current Queen (may she live a long and healthy life), and of all her relatives that are more closely related then you. That is a lot of events. Then you still have to be identified, and whatever other social events need to transpire. Very unlikely. And it is more likely that a meteor or comet will destroy the earth's biosphere then that of happening in the same time period.
 Now, why are those events so unlikely? Because there aren't in the LightCones. Which is why they are LightCones, not LightSpheres. Otherwise all possibilities would be as equally likey from moment to moment.---StarPilot

The LightCones are manifest intermittantly, sparcely, where they overlap an exchange occures, with no definate direction in time, quantum electrodynamic exchanges, a set of discrete changes in one or more dimensions balancing identical internal hilbert space state changes, which are then propogated into a future intersection with another light cone listening for that energy in the opposite direction.

This information network manifests an ecology of information of all that exists. In this realm, Maxwell's daemon is alive and well, logically generating order from disorder generating an existance who's nature is logical, not physical, hence the quantum.


p.s. Any universe that really lost information is gone. How all information might be resurected is really beyond science as it is beyond the spiritual. But in so far as ressurection of information is possible with a finite number of states, we can be certain, it exists or will exist, as it is self susstaining and all logical systems in increasing complexity, like MonkeysAndTyperwriters, are being created in the continuing BigBang.

A flashlight pointing at the black night sky could not drain its batteries if it were not for the existance of eyes billions of years in the future to resurect the change of state in the fillament according to modern physics. As this future listener is unknowable scientifically, we can only say that this possibility of future interaction is enough to insure the future of order emerging on larger scales on blossoming information dimensions of space and time, sight, sound, and mind, beyond our wildest dreams.

Maxwell's Daemon is a creator.


We fail to agree which way is up on our intersecting LightCones, twisting them into the space dimension as we both manifest an interaction from the other as up (forward in time) in our LightCones.

Changes are manifest at the distance of their wavelenght manifesting a virtual difference or particle, in a chain of particles and antiparticles, or differences and minus differences, forever, defining a light cone line, until manifest in some object which receives the difference internally and then employs it to manifest itself (it's light cone) in a sequence of puctuated existance, the time dimension. LightCones are clocks, their structure tilting on the time space axes by relative motion but no clocks ordering can be violated since received signals are gone before propogated signals are transmitted. The light cone fabric of time and space only manifests indeterminant orderings for independent clocks (light cones) manifesting space.

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