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The truth, in it's obstinacy, is brittle; it is fragile. Lacking flexibility, the truth shows no outward evidence of the stress placed on it until it is too late. Shattering, the truth falls to the ground.

If that which is not true is a lie, then in lies I find virtue. Lies change and grow. Lies evolve, that is, undergo natural selection and adaptation. Lies survive. Adapted and resilient, lies are attractive to believers. When reality shakes, truths crumble; lies bend and recoil, emerging stronger than before. Placing faith in the truth exposes one to the risk of crumbling, while placing faith in lies is an act of fortification.


From its ashes Truth is resurrected in in a cumulative composite organization destined to emerge where the lies lay exposed in a SeaOfTruth. Truth has power ultimately, but not in our lifetimes generally.

Truth may be pleasant, or unpleasant. A pleasant lie is preferable to a HorribleTruth, isn't it? And truth is really just what people say is true, right? We create our world by our misinterpretation of what is around us in anyway. So, by a force of will, we propagate a belief until it manifests an accepted truth. We fake it until we make it. We rewrite history to define the present we choose.

In the end it is the lies that crumble. Their weakness is they are falsifiable. Truths relative to logical context evolve in a HelgianDialectic where the thesis and the antithesis are combined in a synthesis creating information, defeating TheNothing in the SeaOfTruth. Truth is God. -JimScarver

Who says truth is what people say is true? Certainly this is not the case==== It is exactly the 'perceived' truth whose virtues I extol: the flexible truths. 'Flexible truth' is an oxymoron. Furthermore, if we are speaking of Truth, the Truth which you concede has power only over the long haul, then we are NOT speaking of 'truth by consensus.' These truths to which you refer, arrived at by misinterpretation of what is around us, are the epitome of virtuous lies. The deception of our senses does not cloud the truth enough. We engage in a comprehensive deception of the mind. The truth can paralyze. I have glimpsed the truth, or a hint of it, and reacted as a deer in the headlights. My eyes fixed themselves on it, unable to focus, serving no purpose but to reflect the blinding light back toward it's ghastly source. It's not safe. It's terrifying. In the face of the truth, no course of action becomes apparent. Its appalling cruelty has no back door, no antidote. If humanity is to get anything done, the truth is to be avoided at all costs. ==== -OutRadulous

So, you work for the government, do you? That's the exact reaction of any government employee when told the truth. Management has an extreme reaction, especially. ---StarPilot

I was hoping for more from you, StarPilot. ---OutRadulous


A) Not overtly, but this is the reaction of a government official.

B) I think your point however was not in seeing that, but rather in trying to argue it's validity.

Think about it, we live in a democracy, the PeopleInPower have the biggest SeaOfLies of all. It's the lies that survive, it is the truth that get voted out. Try telling the voters that we got attacked because we are supporting Israel's war financially and because we exploit every country we can get our hands on. Politicians know better than most the nature of truth. So StarPilot, yes you are right, yes I agree with you I tend to be very critical of our government, but don't think for a second that it's a fluke that the PeopleInPower are nearly always captains of their ship in the SeaOfLies. -JaLong


By claiming any understanding of the truth, you are merely thrashing for survival in the SeaOfLies. The truth does not survive. Facts do not survive. Enlightenment occurs, but don't pretend that it was the truth that enlightened you. It is lies that make us better people. Hope is a lie. Ambition is lie. Your dreams are lies. But all three will make the world a better place.


OutRadulous, you can hope all you want. But all you are coming across here to me with, is a bit of Angst. Angst can be a good thing. Goodness knows its the primary motivator of half of modern art's reason for being. ;-)

JaLong, you having an Angst fit as well? Dreams are not lies. Ambition is not a lie. Hope is not a lie. Those are all desires. Desire for our own reward, desire for more, and just desire for the future. Desire is an emotion, not a truth. Emotions cannot be a lie. They simply are a mental state. If you do not like you mental state, there are many options to changing it. Mental states are not fixed in stone.

I was talking about actually doing business with the government. I work for and with NASA. The first rule of business I picked up here was 'Never tell the truth to your customers. Truth has no place in business.' This isn't a matter of marketing. It's the honest to goodness, the individual NASA person has decided what their business truth is, and they often go into shock when confronted with reality's truth (which is invariably counter to their individual 'truth').

And with my working of other government employees outside of NASA, I see an even larger, more extremeness, to this.

Truth has little place in for profit businesses. It has no place in any non-profit organization such as the government.

As far as truth goes... there is the consensus of what happens/is happening/has happened, and then there is what actually happens/is happening/has happened. The reason for the disconnect is due to how the HumanAnimal is constructed. Our entire consciousness is one unique universe. Period. Full stop. Everything that happens around us, our mind has to model for us to understand. Since you can only model what you know, it is easy to miss bits of information/data, and make an incorrect model of the happening.

As creatures that mentate everything, we carry this over in our other dealings with our life. We predict future happenings based on our experience with the past. Since our past database has been filtered through our moment to moment mental modeling, and that has then translated into our near term and long term modeling, our database is full of inaccuracies and glaring holes in what happened. Also, at each step of transition of the modeling, the data model translates, allowing for translation and abstraction errors. Further complicate that with the fact that if we don't need to know something for our current and near future needs, our mind stores that mentation model, breaking it down into smaller units which take less energy to store. A system rife with opportunities for the original experience and model to morph into something different.

Ever been in car accident? Something more then a fender bender? What do you remember of it? Go back and compare that to the first time you wrote it down, such as your accident report, or the incident as recorded by a police officer that responded to the scene. If you didn't bang your head too badly (which would interrupt your normal mental processing), and had become very emotional, that event would have been registered as a high priority event in your memory, something with which more storage space/energy/detail is allocated/desired, so you are liable to remember it for a long time afterward. However, those details of what happened have been changing in your mind, if you are a typical HumanAnimal. Even with the mind wanting to remember as much detail as possible.

I've been in a few serious car accidents. I've had people try to kill me on several occasions. Even those high priority/high interest events blur and fuzz, over time. The order, the arrangement of object and people, all that changes, blurs, fuzzes over time. As your mind decides such an event is unlikely, it stops maintaining that memory pattern at such a high detail level. And now, history is changed. Your personal, real life history, has changed. Whee==== ====

That's half the truth to the sea of lives. Our minds simply do not remember things 'truthfully'. Not most of us, anyways. Our minds take a shortcut to store off things. And then those stored memories degrade when not utilized over time...

I've been lucky enough to have friends with photographic, and even phonographic, memories. I've thought about this a long time. Such a memory makes people think they are incredibly smart, because they have such clear recall of how things look, or sounded. You know what? Even in their highly important, high impact memories, things change. They just don't notice as easily as other people, as they are used to being right about what they remember more then the average human.

Most people know or learn that they can be wrong in what they know/remember. But for the average HumanAnimal, they go ahead anyways. Why? Because it is all that you have. That's your reality. If you are wrong, you will 'adjust' accordingly when you find out you are wrong. I think this is the real key to why we are such well adjustable beings. It's a life skill that we develop, to deal with our own reality 'mistakes'.

The second half to why people's truth is different from what is actually going on... other then your brain is a fallible storage device using an imperfect mentation and transition process between mentation layers, is this: we are primarily emotional beings. People like to think we are logical. But we are not. We are emotional beings, using logic to rationalize why we should do what we want to do. This is the reason we pick the 'truth' we prefer over a truth that may be more in keeping with reality. Because the truth we pick appeals to us, on an emotional level.

It isn't that the world is swimming in a sea of lies. It's that your mind prefers it. It is used to adjusting to the actual truth when the truth forces it to. Otherwise, you mind will continue on undisturbed, in its own little universe.

A few examples:

  • "She wants me. I know she knows I'm one sexxy guy====" ====
  • "He's got no weapons of mass destruction. We just know he doesn't====" ====
  • "I'm the smartest and best looking gal in the class====" ====
  • "OJ Simpson is guilty/innocent====" ====


  1. Your mind fudges things. Your reality is one big fudge model of what is actually happening. You mind understands this. We've developed so that if things don't match our understanding, we simply adjust.
  1. We are emotional beings. As such, our mind pick the truth that is most appealing to our emotional being. Our mind doesn't care if this is logically right or wrong, it picks what it likes. If this turns out to be the wrong belief, our mind will adjust. (see 1 above.) If nothing outside disturbs this belief, then we are more emotionally satisfied with our answer, regardless of the philosophical illogic it may be. To our mind, it matters how we feel about it, not how it logically stacks up. This is a self rewarding measure. And we all like our rewards...


Correct Star, except I do Business truthfully. There are those who say I am overly optimistic about deliverables and time tables, but my record shows that given the resources promised I always deliver, and always deliver, eventually, even when the resources are not given.

Nobody likes the truth, and that makes me a lowsey businessman. But I'm not smart enough to lie, so I don't. I have learned however to omit some unpleasant truths. like the AwfulTruth and the HorribleTruth. Instead of lies, I choose to dispense PositiveTruth and conceal NegativeTruth when prudent to do so.

I believe the necessity to lie, is a lie, and that no reasonable being would choose lies over truth.

There are islands of truth in the sea of lies. We could not build a bridge that stands, or space shuttle that flies unless objective criteria, truth, is given power. WE should promote bastions of Truth. There exists both RealScience and PopularScience.

In The CosmicConciousness, the manifest CollectiveIntelligence, truth overwhelms the lies, exiling them to small islands in the sea of truth.

Am I alone in my worship of Truth? I do feel more than a bit like Don Quixote.. crusading for Truth.

Objectivity is quanitifiable, to say it is impossible, is denying the mathematical reality (Truth), if it is impossible for Humans, than we are less than GeneralPurposeMachines. If so WE must delegate to machines or be prepared go the way of the dinosaurs.


Hey, StarPilot. It sounds as though we are in agreement. Whether you want to call them lies or not, it's exactly these self-rewarding measures of which I speak in favor. We are also in agreement that the mind willfully accepts it's fudge model of the universe. Without these adjustments and all the fudging, it would be hard to get anything done. Perhaps I should clarify my own stance by saying that the Truth that bothers me is the inflexible Truth. Also, I'm not accusing humanity of being liars -- at least not unequivocally. I said "IF" that which is not True is a lie.....

As for JimScarver, well, he is a liar.  ;-)


Indeed "IF" that which is not True is a lie then I am guilty. I speculate, interpolate, use StatisticalThinking, forget, and make errors. But that is not what is we mean by lies in ordinary language. Lies are the willfull countradiction of known facts. I choose to be truthful but I am not perfect and present truths in a biased manner. I misrepresent the truth at times. But to call me a liar is an abortion of truth as if anything I am honest to a flaw and reviel NegativeTruth unnecessarily. -JimScarver

OutRadulous, I think we are in general agreement.

Jim, liar means: To lie. To not tell the truth. To willfully misrepresent the truth. You are undoubtedly a liar. We are all liars. Some just lie a whole lot more then others.

At one point in my life, I became very opposed to any misrepresentation of the truth, however small. Even social white lies, which all sociatal members practice. I had my reasons. They were emotionally based, but reasons none the less. Those emotional reasons gave me a motivation to examine why people 'lie', and under what circumstances.

The trouble with truth is, you cannot be sure of truth for yourself. People can easily blind themselves to their own rationalization process, and pick the lie that suits them over the truth of events. While I believe that path leads to more lies being willfully told then others, being honest as an arrow flies will also leave one just as willfully telling lies. For many good reasons, or because of socially expected behavior.

Ultimately, as a HumanAnimal, one must understand that 'IamAnAsshole', that 'I am a liar', and that we lie willfully to ourselves and each other. If you tell people a lie willfully, even though you believe it is true, you are still a liar. They can only see you as being a willful liar, or being an honest but mistaken liar. Regardless, you are still a liar.

We cannot know the truth. But we can occasionally know what is not true. From this sense of negative, we think we can recognize the postive, but that is not true. Just because you do not smell your own stink, does not mean logically that you smell nice.

Lies are like smells. Some we like, others we don't. Ultimately, Truth is merely a lie we are waiting to start to smell, so we can detect it is a lie. The fact that you try not to cause a stink is admirable, but you are going to do so, from time to time, Jim. ;-)


"# Your mind fudges things. Your reality is one big fudge model of what is actually happening. You mind understands this. We've developed so that if things don't match our understanding, we simply adjust."

The term SeaOfLies is an inside joke between Greg (OutRadulous) and I (JaLong). And it is brought about precisely for the above reason. So I'm glad that you pointed that out. Because it goes to the root of what the SeaOfLies really is. And that fudged information is just as real to us (usually greg) to any actual truth, and if that information fits into your perspection of the truth just as well as any other fact, then in a way, it is the truth. That was my point. DoIHaveAngst? Most certainly, however it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. And Jimscarver, my beloved friend. In business, you do try to be truthful. However admirable this is, admit that you are constantly getting us in trouble with your big mouth. (and big camera in some cases) And besides, a great teacher of mine once said, "IamAnAsshole." -JaLong

-D You got me there, JaLong. We all have some Angst, from time to time. I'd just gone over my limit and had to execute a minor emergency venting. No worries though. I generally listen, and sometimes suggest possible courses of action. Taking action tends to make people feel better. It lets them feel like they are gaining some measure of control over the uncontrollable, regardless if they are. And it is generally worry over the uncontrollable (or uncontrolled) that causes Angst, in my ignorant opinion. -StarPilot

Nietsche says it best:

-"For all the value that the true, the truthful, the selfless may deserve, it would still be possible that a higher and more fundamental value for life might have to be ascribed to deception, selfishness, and lust. It might even be possible that what constitutes the value of these good and revered things is precisely that they are insidiously related, tied to and involved with these wicked, seemingly opposite things - maybe even one with them in essence. Maybe==== ====

-"But who has the will to concern himself with such dangerous maybes? For that, one really has to wait for the advent of a new species of philosophers such as have somehow another and converse taste and propensity from those we have known so far - philosophers of the dangerous "maybe" in every sense.

-"And in all seriousness: I see such new philosophers coming up.

From Beyond Good and Evil, Part One, passage 2.

p.s. If anyone knows of any better online texts, i.e. complete texts of this and other Nietsche works, please post.


Garbage. Nothing but garbage.

I hope Nietsche has something actually worthwhile to say.

To say that Good only has meaning thanks to Evil is to make an analogue that there is only light because there is darkness. That is a bad analogy.

Good behavior would still be the same behavior, and would still be Good. We might not be able to recognize it as a blessing, if it was not for Evil. We wouldn't at times so appreciate such behavior when we were the recipents of such Good behavior, but that would not cause Good to simply stop existing. Good deeds do tend to lead to more, regardless of the ill in and around people. Therefore, Good would still proprogate from person to person regardless of whether Evil existed.

No, the analogy that there can be no Good without Evil is simply wrong. Moles and bacteria might be sightless and therefore cannot see light, but that does not cause the light to stop existing.


If there are no observers, it does not exist. So if everything persistant piece of information was a mole or bacteria, light would not exist. Events make it manifest.


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